Men Made For More Podcast Episode 111: Being Vulnerable and Loving Yourself to Love Others with Matt CarlsonDec 24, 2020
As men we are told to put on a front of having it all together, being strong, and being immovable. While that looks great in movies - it’s not the reality that guys face today. That kind of pressure and illusion of being unshakeable prevents us from fully receiving love and giving it to others. Listen up today to learn a better alternative that’s true and authentic to who you were made to be.
You can reach Matt on Twitter @mattcarlson
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Men Made For More Podcast Episode 111: Being Vulnerable and Loving Yourself to Love Others with Matt Carlson
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Men Made For More podcast, a show designed by men for men looking to get strong, feel confident, and live a high performing life. As men, we face many challenges as we try and strive for a better life. We want to live a meaningful and competent life. The don't know where to start. You've lost your physical and mental edge.
[00:00:18] It's keeping you from living out your full potential. You're tired of talking about doing big things and you're ready to start living it with the men made for more podcasts. The goal is to teach you how to strengthen your body, your mind. And your purpose and your way to reaching your full potential. It's time to start living as a man.
[00:00:34] You know, you can be to help lift those up that matter the most in your life. Every week, we'll have a featured guest who will share valuable information and experience to give you actionable strategies. You can apply to live as a man you were made to go drawn or guests, knowledge and experience. More importantly, we will discuss how this applies to the common challenges and struggles with being a man in today's world.
[00:00:55] Our goal is to not only build strong men physically. But to help coach and develop strong [00:01:00] friends, sons, brothers, fathers, business owners, and professionals in every area of your life. I'm your host, Dr. Dave Paczkowski, proud husband, business owner, physical therapist and strength coach with a passion for helping other men strengthen their body, their mind, and their purpose, wherever you're at on your journey.
[00:01:19] Dave: [00:01:19] I'm excited to have you here with us today. Now let's dive in
[00:01:22] today's episode of the Men Made For More podcast.
[00:01:27] Dave: [00:01:27] Welcome to the Men Made For More podcast, man. I'm stoked to have you on here for our first year in person one here at inside out strengthened performance. So first in person, first in person, come on a hundred for it. So we'll see how it goes for those watching the video.
[00:01:41] We get the, uh, The fresh look here away from the normal normal podcast scene. But thanks for coming on today, man. This is good social distance, right? Yeah. We're distanced. We're safe where we're safe, maybe some footsies going on in the table, but I think we're good. We're good. Now, why don't you fill in a fill in listeners here?
[00:01:58] Give a little background [00:02:00] on your story personally, professionally where you're at and, uh, kind of your background so people can get a better idea of you.
[00:02:06] Matt: [00:02:06] Totally, man. Well, thanks again for having me on feel honored. Just, you know, the privilege of being here. Just feel like I'm actually getting a workout just by sitting in this a gym.
[00:02:16] It was great. But, uh, yeah, I mean, my story is it's kind of a, you know, unconventional one, but, uh, well let me say currently I'm, uh, on staff as a pastor at our church and been there for about 15 years and, uh, that's not something I ever, ever thought I was going to do it. Wasn't like, you know, posters of pastors on my wall as a kid, you know, that's what I want to be when I grew up.
[00:02:38] But, um, Yeah, because I'll all I wanted to do for me personally, was just be the rock star, bro. I wanted to, you know, I played drums, guitar, exit, you know, it was self-taught and all of those things, I didn't have YouTube. Like the kids have these days learning. It's crazy what the F what access they have to, things like that.
[00:02:54] But yeah, uh, just loved music and loved playing, playing drums, playing the [00:03:00] guitar. And so I was in. Got started with, uh, some bands and doing that kind of thing. Um, and I was in high school right out of high school was that's all I wanted to do and pursue, uh, long story short from there a band that I actually, uh, had had started, you know, I ended up getting kicked out of my own band.
[00:03:19] And, uh, kicked out. And then from that point on, it was just really, uh, a pivot in my life. Uh, a friend of mine who was a youth pastor at the church that I currently am at right now, he invited me to be a part of the ministry. And that's where I just felt, um, you know, God awakened in me, this, this. Desire and passion to, to lead and to invest in the lives of others.
[00:03:42] And it was over a course of years of doing that, that it really was cemented. Like, this is what I want to do. Um, so long story short, I mean, my role has been, uh, at the, at the church has morphed and changed and evolved, but I've been there for 15 years. And, uh, it's been been a wild ride. Uh, 10 years [00:04:00] ago, met Paige, uh, got married and we now have just a little over two year old, uh, boy, little Archer.
[00:04:09] And so I'm learning what it's like to be a dad and all the fun and challenges and everything that comes with that. So long story short that's it brings us today brings it, brings us to where we are.
[00:04:21] Dave: [00:04:21] And, uh, how did you, I know you said you you're wearing a lot of different roles at the church, how's it?
[00:04:26] How's it evolved from when you started to where you are now?
[00:04:29] Matt: [00:04:29] Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I started, uh, in youth ministry. So that friend knows Tony about, uh, I mean, shortly after I came on board there and it was a part of the team, he was actually let go, and there was this kind of, this vacuum of leadership. And so a few of us, uh, leaders, we kind of banded together.
[00:04:50] To keep the ministry going. And, um, again, not at that time, I was still kind of want to just do music and that was my gig. And, but, uh, [00:05:00] it, you know, God used that, that transition in that time, that season to awaken. Uh, that passion. And so all of a sudden I found myself really caring about this team, the students, and keeping, um, everyone, making sure that one was, was cared for and that the ministry kept going.
[00:05:18] And so we did that for about seven years, uh, youth ministry. So I ended up getting hired on as the youth pastor did that for about seven years and then transitioned for about five years into a role that was kind of a hybrid. Of, uh, um, young adult ministry, plus some like communications and marketing websites, social media, all that kind of stuff.
[00:05:39] Uh, and just about two, three years ago, transitioned again into my, my current role, which is a pastor of overseeing all of our groups. Um, our young adult ministry and then getting to teach, um, you know, once a month, once every five weeks or so. Uh, so it's been kind of a wild ride and, uh, doing things today, [00:06:00] you know, in, in.
[00:06:01] You know, in ministry that I just was never, again, never on my radar. Um, but it's kind of been cool along the way. People have been able to call out and, and notice and to pinpoint different giftings and things that they've seen in me. And I've needed that to kind of, I don't know where I'm, I don't know what I'm doing to be honest.
[00:06:18] And it's been cool. People called out and say, Matt, you are good at this. You have a gift here. And so that's been a huge encouragement as well. And so yeah, different roles, but within the same church and it's been a gift to be there.
[00:06:35] Dave: [00:06:35] Yeah. Has been asking me to know you and, uh, hearing, you know, Lindsey and I would both agree on this here and hearing you preach both formally on, uh, on Sundays, but also just talking my, to you.
[00:06:44] It's uh, you know, it's, it's definitely, uh, you have a unique gift with, with tying together, you know, certain things that even for. For Christians for non-Christians alike, like ethical life things. And I know you are, you read [00:07:00] into some of the self-help world, like you're, you're aware of those things too.
[00:07:02] It's not like only, you know, only based on the Bible and not exposing yourself to other things. And cause the things we're going to talk about today are so, you know, we're talking off camera, so. Applicable to, to people in general of how to improve your relationships, how to be more vulnerable, how to, how to give love.
[00:07:20] And I know for you, you mentioned that important thing is receiving love first. And how do we, you know, especially if vulnerability is such a big kind of buzzword, I think right now a lot of people are talking about being vulnerable and it's. It's uh, you know, more accepted to be vulnerable. It's, it's, uh, you know, something we're encouraged to just like go out there and be vulnerable.
[00:07:38] And I think it's easier said than done, I think with, uh, actually letting people truly into, into our lives. But you know, what, what challenges do you see with, uh, for men especially is trying to try to put up this macho front, we're trying to, you know, be these, these bold men, these men that are, are unfazed, and how do we start to let love in=. And how do we do that with, with how were you [00:08:00] loving others and loving ourselves as well?
[00:08:02] Matt: [00:08:02] Yeah, that's a great question. A mentor of mine once said he defined love in this way. He said, love is the process of meeting needs. And so in order to love and to be loved, there has to be needs that are being met.
[00:08:18] I think what you're talking about in describing macho, man, like as a persona. As, as, as a shield and a shell, it doesn't allow a man to be loved. If you, if you walk around, I'm thinking I have to be, I have to be my strongest self and I can't show any weakness. I can't show any, you know, limitations and all that stuff.
[00:08:38] What you're doing, it might feel like you're, you know, it's self protection and all that. But what you're doing is that you're actually keeping love out. You can't be loved if people don't aren't allowed to meet a need. And so when we, we, uh, minimize our needs and we, we hide our weaknesses, we're actually doing a very we're harming ourself, you know, [00:09:00] from, from being able to receive the love and the care, the support that others are ready to give us.
[00:09:06] So that's the, I'd say one of the things that, you know, th the, the macho man, the, the man's man, the olive, whatever, however you want to describe that. It, it definitely keeps people out.
[00:09:18]Dave: [00:09:18] Yeah. And w where, and I know some men can be skeptical of, of going out and maybe sharing their feelings with everyone. Like, where's this start? Where is it? Where's maybe a practical starting point for people? Is it just within the home? Or like, how do you start to. You know, w we're not necessarily saying, just go tell everyone you meet, like every single, your deepest, deepest, darkest secrets or anything, but how to, how do you, how would you suggest guys start to branch into this?
[00:09:43] Cause it's a, it's a big shift for some people. If they're used to putting up this front and a shield, how do we start to break, break down that shield to, to let that in?
[00:09:50] Matt: [00:09:50] Yeah. Well, I think first things first, he got to come and, uh, get to know Dr. Dave, you know, just to be on his podcast. It opens up eyes. It does now, but.
[00:09:59] That's a [00:10:00] great question. Like, what are the, what do we do? Um, I think first of all, first of all is, I mean, I answer that question with some practicals, but, but to, to really think through a couple things here, uh, we live in a culture that tells us, you know, in the way that I've said it before is, is we're allergic to need and we're addicted to strength.
[00:10:21] And we got to realize the culture that we swim in is, is really it's it's, it's teaching us to, to operate in a, in a certain way. And I'd say it's even lying to us about what it means to be strong, what it means to be a man. And the way that I think about this, you know, like we have to understand that we are created beings.
[00:10:44] Whatever faith background, you have whatever, you know, you come from. Like, I think we can come to the common understanding that we didn't create ourselves. We're created beings and we have a creator again. I don't know, not everyone's going to agree with that, but just give, [00:11:00] give that premise a chance. Give it, take this premise for a test drive.
[00:11:04] If you are a created being, you have a creator, then you are created to function in a certain way. You know, there's a way in which you were designed to live. And the, the thing that I keep coming back to is like, um, you know, like feelings and emotion. So those are the kind of, one of the things that we're talking about.
[00:11:22] Like, you know, men have a, I'd say mostly men. It be, it's a man and woman issue too. Like mostly men have a hard time sharing emotion showing, you know, the, the, the cracks in the armor, you know, feelings and all that stuff. We're kind of, we stay away from those things. But what if you were created to feel.
[00:11:42] What if that's part of the design, you're given a heart and your heart without you don't have to train your heart, your heart feels, it feels things there's there's motions. And so instead of like pushing emotions away and, and, and getting them, you know, I don't want anything to do with feelings and emotions.
[00:11:58] What if we actually [00:12:00] got, we began to be curious about what those, those feelings and those emotions were. Again, it's not going away from who we are, but going deeper into it. Going deeper into it. If we're created and we are created with a heart that feels let's let it be who's us to, to understand that and to go, to go deeper into that and to understand, okay, what is it that I'm feeling?
[00:12:21] What is it that I'm thinking? What are, what are my, my fears, my, my wounds, my pains, my joys, you know? And so I think first things first, just understanding that feelings are not, it's not, uh, the F word. Okay. Feelings are a good thing. And to learn how to identify those would be like step one and then begin to, uh, open yourselves up to like talking about those with others.
[00:12:47] And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. We're not suggesting like here's your prescription go and just start to, you know, find a shoulder to cry on, you know, go and share everything that you're going through. But, uh, yeah, so. [00:13:00] I don't know. Do you have any, any thoughts about that just in terms of us being created beans?
[00:13:05] Does that make sense? Yeah.
[00:13:06] Dave: [00:13:06] No, totally. And I think, you know, one thing that stood out as you were talking about that too, is, you know, we look at this pandemic and this lockdown and, uh, the need to be in relationship was, is more evident now than it's ever been. Especially we look back to, to March, April was shutdown, some lockdowns and those things too.
[00:13:23] I don't think. Anyone can argue said regardless of belief background, that we're made to be in community in relationship for those that were, you know, in some kind of community already, and that got taken away, regattas, friendships, family, seeing people that's that I think that revealed its need of, of how, how badly we need to be regularly doing that.
[00:13:45] Matt: [00:13:45] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's it's fundamental. I mean, we are relational beings and that's the you're you're absolutely right. There's. Been something that we've seen just in the aftermath. Um, there were throughout the course of the last eight, nine [00:14:00] months, uh, this pandemic is just the importance of relationships and.
[00:14:04]families and people I'm being known by others and being able to, to share and to relate, to carry burdens. And to really, again, like to think about the needs to have surfaced in this time, you know, like there's, I've, I've seen both, both cases here where there's been a lot, a lot of need. And then there's also been this really cool way where, where people have been, you know, caught needs and leads.
[00:14:31] Like there's a lot of people with needs and there's lot of people with leads. Like I can meet that and think about this as that when we express need and limitation to others, we're actually giving them an invitation to step more fully into who they are, like what a cool gift that is. If you Dave, if you're trying to love me, you know, to support me and I'm like, no, dude, I'm good.
[00:14:53] I'm fine. It's actually, it's not me. Uh, you know, I don't know. [00:15:00] Oh, I don't want it. I don't want to be a burden to you. Sure. That might be part of it, but I'm actually saying no, I'm not allowing you to love me. I'm not allowing you to be. Who you are created to be. So it's just kind of a cool thing for us to express need to one another to express to you.
[00:15:13] Like, man, this is going on. Here's a hard, a hard situation. We're opening that up. Like we're actually inviting other people to step more fully into who they were created to be like what a cool gift that is.
[00:15:24] Dave: [00:15:24] Yeah, I love that it puts some different perspective. Onyx. I never thought about that as it relates to our gifts, our talents and those other things.
[00:15:32] I can't think of a time where I've ever, you know, offered someone something and been like, Hey, like I want you to have this or, you know, whatever that may be. And then being like, yeah, Oh, no, no. Like in re rejecting it, me feeling really like, I never, I never feel good leaving that they take it and they're appreciative and they actually accept it.
[00:15:49] Matt: [00:15:49] And, uh, you know, I didn't think about that as much as it relates to like love as well. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, think about, it's a gift to receive a gift well, you know, it's [00:16:00] allowing that person to, um, To be who they are and to, yeah. So it seems like we're helping people out by, I don't want to be a burden. I don't want to be.
[00:16:10] Uh, and again, we, we also don't want to say, I mean, we get it. There's people that take advantage of this kind of thing. And there's the highly needy friends and the people of man, every time I'm with them, they suck me dry and say, again, we're not talking about those extremes, those exist, and those are there's different protocol for that.
[00:16:26] Sure. We're just talking about just the day to day life, like living in on this planet, you are going to encounter limitation. You're going to encounter a need. You're going to encounter weakness. And you're also going to be, you're going to be able to offer and provide strength. You're going to be able to offer resources.
[00:16:45] You're gonna be able to give, so it gets us both. And, and so is this like, what does it look like for us to live. In light of who we are and here at, on this, this planet, this broken place that will eventually, [00:17:00] it will come at us. We will, we will be in positions of need. Are we willing to reach out and allow people to love us?
[00:17:08] Dave: [00:17:08] Hmm. Yeah. That's great. So you mentioned first thing is identifying those things. And I think for some that might be. For some, that that'd be a great starting point. If they're they've pushed emotions so far aside that they can't even identify what they're feeling. It sounds like that's a great start, but for those that are maybe aware, but unable to share, what, uh, you know, what advice do you have in terms of, okay, I've identified these things.
[00:17:32] I. This is where my insecurities are. This is where my emotions are. That I'm, that I'm pushing aside. How do you, you know, how do you recommend, or what's, what's stopping people from, from sharing? Because I think of things like fear, I think things like insecurity, fear, rejection, like those things what's, what's stopping people.
[00:17:50] And what are maybe some ways that they can. Get over that. Cause like we said, it's, it's easy to sit here and be like, Oh, just go, you know, go share that thing. But those, those kinds of [00:18:00] cuts, those cuts can be deep and those can be hard to hard to let people in on.
[00:18:04] Matt: [00:18:04] Yeah. Well it's, it's often in relationships that we have, we, uh, we experienced the deepest wounding, but it's also going to be in relationships that we experienced the deepest healing.
[00:18:17] And it's, uh it's so it almost feels like paradox, skull, like man, and a lot of times, you know, where we have it, where we've been hurt and wounded, like we want to just stay as far away from that. Like, and we make these vows and these promises to ourselves. Well, I went off and I shared my, you know, it's extremely painful thing with, with my friend and I was betrayed, I was rejected or, you know, whatever that might be.
[00:18:45] Then there's this where the vow comes in. I will never do that again. Like I'm never going to allow myself to be known and be exposed in that way. And so a lot of the things that, you know, that we do today to [00:19:00] make ourselves appear like we've got it together and all of the resume building activities, that we're a part of all of the persona management that we're obsessed with.
[00:19:08] It really is, is a, a reaction to. Potentially a reaction to the woundings that we received earlier on because we did trust somebody and then they let us down. Um, but to answer your question directly is it's okay. It is difficult and it's still something that I am con I long for. And I'm so thankful that God brings people into my life, that I can experience that, uh, that trust with.
[00:19:32] I think that's what it comes down. To be honest, it's trust. It's trusting myself with others. And to be someone that they, that can be trusted with them, like give me who you are and I want, and so that I can, I can in whatever way, be used by God to, to encourage them, to support you, or even just to be an unflinching friend, you know, for, for you to tell me what's going on in your life and me, I'm not going to flinch.
[00:19:57] I'm not going anywhere. You know, I'm here to [00:20:00] support and encourage you through, through this. I'm not trying to fix it, but to, to be there with you. But I, I that's what I'm, you know, I'm looking for, you know, when I'm looking at, or I think it's still the desires, that's the desire, the more hearts, you know, relations.
[00:20:16] Yeah. I want a place that's so safe where I can actually be myself and reveal all that stuff and to not be rejected in, to be known and loved, not known and rejected. Um, so I think, you know, The first thing that we can do honestly, is seek to be that kind of person, you know, to, to be that safe place and to, to show interest and curiosity into the lives of others.
[00:20:42] And, um, cause again, you know, we can, yeah. I think just being, being a safe place for someone to, to process, um, And not, not necessarily looking to get my needs met, you know, first and foremost, but to, to be a need meter, I know [00:21:00] this, it sounds like I feel that I'm contradicting what I said earlier, but. The place to start is like, okay, I can, I want to be for others.
[00:21:10] What I'd like for them to be for me is the simple way to put it, you know? Cause we can't control other people, but we can seek to become the thing that we want others to provide. So that'd be like the, the first thing is just how well am I doing at, at being that for others? At that trusted place. Yeah.
[00:21:30] Dave: [00:21:30] And I think that could be such a, I mean, one, I think would be amazed at the quality of the relationships that can improve when, when you do that. But how that can be an inspiration to, you know, at some point we have to, we have to break the chain as guys, this can happen as, you know, if you're around people that are, have that front up and have that shield up, it, you know, leadership in general, we talk leading whether it's in a company, whether it's in our family, whether it's in anything.
[00:21:56] Leaders have to initiate and have to initiate [00:22:00] into, into that. And if you're waiting for, you know, you're probably longing for someone else to, to do, to fill that need for you. But sometimes I would guess we might have to take the first step and that requires some, some vulnerability, some fear to step into that.
[00:22:14] But anything you you'd have to on that with initiating?
[00:22:18] Matt: [00:22:18] Well, I think that's huge here being the one who to initiate. And I think if there was like, you know, characteristics of manhood. You know, I think an initiator is it's the top of the list it to, to initiate. I think that that is huge. I think so many, much of my life, to be honest with you, like has been looking like.
[00:22:40] Would somebody please provide for me what I feel like I'm missing. And I'm, I'm looking to, especially with us, um, you know, I've sought out mentors and people who I could go seek wisdom from. And I think that's it, you know, I'm so thankful for the mentors that I like, that I've been able to, um, You know, that people have [00:23:00] nested into my life.
[00:23:01] Uh, and there, there just comes a point where we can't, we can't get stuck just looking for things from others, but to, to pivot, you know, to become an initiate and to insert ourselves into the lives of others for, for their good, but knowing I, you know, I don't come, I'm not coming here to harm you. I'm coming here to bring about like, you know, I wanna, I want to actually relate.
[00:23:25] I want to actually connect. And so providing a, you know, in a conversation providing, um, transparency and being vulnerable and all of those things. And then, yeah, long-winded way of saying my addition to what you said was like to initiate. That's huge.
[00:23:46] Dave: [00:23:46] And I'd, uh, kinda, kind of curious to hear your thoughts on this too, because I think even if there is a fear around it, even if there is.
[00:23:56] Know, if the fear is around, like this can be [00:24:00] draining or this is going to be taxing on me, or it's a lot of giving. I think even if you're, I think it's, even if you're selfish, like the ability to do this and be there for someone, I think there's receiving that happens from that as well. The same way that I think when we go, you know, service should be a selfless act, but even if there's no selfish motives behind it, I still think it can.
[00:24:22] You know, it, it definitely adds to your life. It's not like this is purely a giving thing for those that might be on the fence with the worry of, of that needy friend or that thing. I think there's, there's probably receiving that can happen from this as well, a hundred percent. Yeah. To think that it's only a good thing to do.
[00:24:39] Matt: [00:24:39] As long as I'm not being, I'm not getting any joy out of it. That's a big lie, you know? And that's just a recipe to create very miserable people. No, I think we were, again, I think God created us to experience, uh, the joy of, uh, of sacrifice and [00:25:00] generosity to give our lives for the betterment of someone else is actually life-giving, you know, it can be.
[00:25:06] Yeah, sure. There's a lot of there's are tough times and it's not always like, we're going to feel like it. You know, that's, that's the thing too is like, I don't feel, I don't feel like it's so, uh, I shouldn't do it or whatever. It's just, no, I think it's extremely life-giving when, you know, maybe not in that particular moment, but to know that I was stepping more fully into what I was created to do, which is to love others, to love them.
[00:25:38] Dave: [00:25:38] Well, yeah. Yeah, I'm glad that there's there's benefit in it and that we can, like, that was, that was so much fun. Yeah. It makes it makes it rewarding. Yeah. I'm curious, uh, on, you know, question as you were talking to, is, are there different levels of this? I think of, you know, for me, No with my wife, Lindsay, it's, [00:26:00] it's easy for me to be open and vulnerable.
[00:26:02] We've gotten, we've gotten to a point where it's, you know, in some guys might be in a relationship where it's not, but I feel like for me, the, the kind of wider the circle goes, it gets, it gets harder. Where's the, are there different levels to this in terms of within our, if we're married with our spouses, to my close friends, to, you know, where does the.
[00:26:23] I would say where's the, where's the line drawn to where there's even, I can tell certain personality types. I have a harder, harder time being vulnerable around. I'm guessing that's maybe insecurities or things that I, you know, I see in that maybe that, um, that they have that I don't, and that creates insecurity is that, so I'm just curious your thoughts on as the, as it expands to, should this be something we're doing with.
[00:26:45] Uh, ideally with, with people we, we don't know super closely or is it, is it the, the more core of the circle, the more vulnerable we be, and then it kind of dissipates a little bit as we, as we expand is that doesn't make sense what I'm asking.
[00:26:57] Matt: [00:26:57] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's going to be different for [00:27:00] different people.
[00:27:00] You know, you have, I mean, there has to be like personality plays a big part into this whole thing. But I think at the end of the day, it's like, who do I, who can I talk to about anything? You know, who, who has an all access pass into my life? Who have I given permission to like, come at you have an all access pass to kind of, to call out or just speak into like, I need you to see my life.
[00:27:27] I need to, and to. To both, you know, we think, Oh man, Oh, you call me out, man. When I'm off, when I'm off track, like, no, it's not just call me out. But it's also that speaking into what do you see in me that is redemptive. And what do you see me doing that it's bringing about good? And how, again, like, like I mentioned earlier in my story, I needed people to speak in and tell me like what they saw God doing in me.
[00:27:54] And how, and through me. And so I would say that, you know, [00:28:00] at a baseline, it's just like, Who is that who, you know, as, as a man, like who's, who is that other, that other man? I, I would recommend like a guy, you know, having another guy that kind of, that is that person who has an all access pass. I think spouses can be that.
[00:28:15] And I think they are naturally, they are. And I think in a healthy marriage, there's going to be some really good, um, life giving. Um, You know, aspects to that, to do what we're describing here. But I also, I think it's also healthy to not just have my, it's not just my spouse that knows me, you know? And it's not just a friend who lives in the other side of the country.
[00:28:38] He knows me, you know, that. But like someone that really I'm doing life with that, that they see me in the inner work, you know, you know, throughout the week and they have that front row seat and that all access pass into my life. So I think it doesn't need to be 10. It doesn't even need to be three, but at least one, one or two [00:29:00] others that, um, you're living in a life that's both.
[00:29:05] Um, the way I heard it put, I like it was just, you're living visibly and vulnerably with visibly. They see you, they see you in day-to-day life. Um, and vulnerably where they have that all access pass. So, yeah, I think it can stress out people who are like, I'm an introvert. I don't, you know, I don't like talking about feelings and are ready and you're now you're telling me I need to go have it.
[00:29:26] You know, a big team of people that were just, I think were saying like, man, it's yeah, it's one, it's two. Like, and I think it's also too, it's more, but just the posture, you know, we're not trying to meet a quota here, like saying, Oh, you got to have it, but it's a posture of, you know, How can I invest in and cultivate the relationships I already have?
[00:29:51] How can I lean into those and be more, be intentional and to, to seek, to be, um, a [00:30:00] pro again, provide that trusted, uh, environments where we can actually be real with one another. So more of a posture I'd say than a quota.
[00:30:09] Dave: [00:30:09] Yeah, I like that a lot. I think that's, that's reassuring for the introverts out there that are now wanting to go, just share their feelings with everyone.
[00:30:17] But what would you say to the extrovert listening nets, you know, maybe has. 10, 20, 30 people that they've led in maybe 80% they've they've led in, you know, 70, 80% to a lot of people. They have no problem sharing surface level, and it may be even a level deeper, but, uh, those that are still, maybe they have a lot of people there they're open with and they're willing to share with, but no one that they're letting in that last.
[00:30:41] 10 or 20%.
[00:30:43] Matt: [00:30:43] Yeah, that's a good way to put it. It lends a lot, you know, extrovert is easy for, for, you know, all of my friends, this network to know if they see the 80% or the 90, you know, uh, who is it that gets that 10%, you know, who, who is it that I, uh, [00:31:00] I've invited in and, uh, to be a part of that, uh, So I think for the extrovert, it'd probably be the same thing.
[00:31:06] It's just like, it's asking, like, who is it? And not just like, Oh, it's it's Dave. Cause I, you know, I liked him and we talk about things like, I mean, let's be intentional here. Let's say like, no, I'm going to start. Because it's, I know that it's, it's in my best interest and the interest of Dave, like for us to, to be healthy, strong leaders and men, like we, we need to give, we need to have having space for these conversations.
[00:31:33] And so when is that? When is that happening? Put it on a calendar. Kind of schedule your life around these important relationships. And so it can be easy to be an extrovert and to be, Oh, everyone knows me. They liked me, or like, you're just kind of constantly with people and stuff, but to be completely alone.
[00:31:50] For people to not even know you, you don't know what's really going on with you. And so again, it doesn't have to be everybody and all your Facebook friends, it just needs to, I think it, there needs to be one [00:32:00] or two people that can truly do know us. And so, I mean, for me, what that looks like is, um, we've, we've started doing these things.
[00:32:08] We call them DNA groups, um, at Seacoast and it's really, it's three or four guys who meet regularly. Um, and it's really to provide space and time for these kinds of conversations, you know, and to, to look over, uh, God's word together to ask, like, ask the hard questions and to be able to share what's going on.
[00:32:28] And so it's, it's in my calendar and it's, it's a regular thing. And. And I know there's times where I'm like, I know I'm getting together with my, my DNA group and these guys like they're great. There's times I look forward to it like, Oh man, I can't wait to, to, you know, for them to share this burden or to whatever there's times where my gosh, shoot, they're going to ask about this.
[00:32:49] And I don't know if I'm ready to go there, but it's, it's there. It's, it's a commitment. It's a say that's in the calendar. Let's say that that [00:33:00] regular, regular rhythm is, is probably important too, because it's, if you don't have that, it's not like, just because you have someone that you've been able to share that with in the past that you're just gonna, you're gonna walk in the door and I'm just going to be like, Oh man, here's what's going on and get right into it.
[00:33:15] I think there's kind of a, probably still a buildup that has to happen. And that probably is minimized though. The more regular that those, uh, interactions are occurring, I would guess. Yeah. I mean, it's like, Stepping into the gym, you know, if it's like a regular part of your routine and stuff, it's going to have to be a whole lot different experience than just, you know, once a quarter, which is what I've been up to lately.
[00:33:40] So yeah, I've just, it's, it's getting your reps in relationally and there's no, again, there's no, there's no place that we need to say, Oh, like here's where you need to be at, you know, it's like, no, it's just, again, it's a posture, it's a direction. It's an intentionality. Just to lean in to that and to cultivate that.
[00:34:00] [00:33:59] Dave: [00:33:59] Yeah. I th I think it's has been awesome so far and I, I, you know, some of the questions that are coming up, I'm just trying to picture questions that that might be being asked. I know we're, we're a little off script as usual, but for the, you know, for, for guys that might, or for anyone listening, is the, is it okay that the, does it have to be a neutral relationship?
[00:34:22] Does it have to be. Like you and I, if Jerry and Jay, so you share, I shared type thing, or are there going to be some times where that might not be the case and you might have to, you know, give in, or I guess gave as in, listen, listen, in one case where you come in, I'm someone that you trust to be able to confide in and listen to, but yeah, maybe you're not necessarily hearing.
[00:34:44] Hearing my feelings or emotions, or I don't feel comfortable. Yeah. And is it okay to have those as separate things? Or should that be? I know, ideally it's, it's in the same relationship, but are there times where that's going to be kind of separate of, you might have to be on the [00:35:00] receiving end for one and give on another side of it.
[00:35:02] Matt: [00:35:02] Yeah. Your question just reminded me of DTRS back in the day, kind of define the relationship. Nice space official. Oh, what's our status now. Big it's again. I don't think it has to be any certain way. Um, I think there's, it's good to know. I think it's good to, to have a mutual, like here's a place where we both have said like, again, going back to the all access pass that we both have been given, giving each other, the all access pass and permission, uh, there's going to be people.
[00:35:44] And even in that scenario, there's gonna be times let's say you and I, they weren't meeting regularly. Uh, there's gonna be times where you're going through the ringer and it isn't very much. Me entering in and into your world for, you know, and so it kind of can kind of feel like it's [00:36:00] all love and stuff towards you.
[00:36:02] And like, you know, the time in the conversation is all regarding whatever issue you're going through and life circumstance. And then there's going to be times where it's says it's me. And then there'll be times where it's just like, we're just checking in. So life happens, there's ebbs and flows. Um, To that, but you know, if you're in a relationship or if you're in a, you know, you're, you're meeting with somebody and they're just constantly, you know, like again, the terminology that comes to mind is like, they're sucking you dry, you know, there's, there's people who give life and then take it.
[00:36:35] Um, when you're in a, you know, you're hanging out with someone and just like every single time you get together, it's just sucking you dry. I mean, that's, that's, uh, You know, that could be, well, I don't know what, you know, it all varies. Like, you know, I think in my line of work, in what I do a lot of my time is spent with that because it's just the role that I have.
[00:36:57] That's my, my job. And I [00:37:00] love, I love that. Um, and I think it's actually easy for me to think, uh, to, to just become, I'm just a giver. I'm just going to be here to support and encourage them and to listen to them. And then. I can become shut off in isolated. So it's actually really important for me to remember that.
[00:37:17] No, I'm, I'm needy as well, and I need to be a part of those part of relationships that were, um, being ministered to put it that way. So I don't, I don't know. What do you think about that? I mean, the mutualness the give and take versus one, one way. How would you respond to your own question? Yeah, it came up as I was, as you were talking.
[00:37:40] Dave: [00:37:40] Cause I. You know, I can think, I can think back to times all the scenarios of, of having something mutual, obviously I think is the most fulfilling and most rewarding of knowing that going into a conversation that I may be on more of the listening and, or maybe I'm more of the talking [00:38:00] end based on that, but I've also been on other sides where it's.
[00:38:04] Where I'm listening a lot and just absorbing and taking it in which I'm totally fine with, but then you're a good listener if I'm only, but if I'm only doing that, then if I'm not getting a chance to express it, then I, uh, then it gets, it gets pent up. And, uh, I know being more. More of a bias for me towards listening than to express it.
[00:38:26] And I have a harder time expressing things, but I'm more okay. That also causes me to, to hide to some degree. Cause I'm more okay. Asking questions and listening and absorbing. I think I have more capacity to do that than maybe someone who's always talking in good examples, honestly, with, with Lindsey and I, she, you know, I'm, I would say, and she would get like I do, I do more of the listening, but there's times then, but then.
[00:38:51] It hurts deeper for me. I think when I, when I do try and express and I don't feel heard, or if I don't have that [00:39:00] outlet with, with other guys or with, with her in particular, you know, I have this capacity to listen, but when I do speak, it's it, uh, I'll say carries more weight, but I'm, I'm more looking for, for someone to be able to hear me the same way that I feel like I can hear others.
[00:39:15] Matt: [00:39:15] Yeah. Yeah, that's such a gift. Like when someone's a good listener, it's like, again, it's such a, it's such an amazing gift. That's yeah. Um, in my marriage, I'm the talker and Paige. Sorry, Paige. Uh, in she, yeah, she has a gift of just being able to, to listen and to try to really make me feel heard. And it's a phenomenal gift.
[00:39:47] I try to do that for other people and it's, it's tough, but yeah, I think you're, you're a fantastic listener and, uh, like you, and you're [00:40:00] really listening. You're not just. allowing someone to talk like you're actually listening to what they say. And, but you also have your own needs or your own things that you want need to articulate and needing to have that place.
[00:40:12] Uh, to be able to do that. So you need to be a more of a guest on a podcast versus the host of one. That's what we're getting down to here.
[00:40:20] Dave: [00:40:20] It's a secret. No, I, I appreciate that. And, uh, you know, I think, I think it just shows though. I, I, I love that tangent because it just shows that I think as a, as a listener, I hear.
[00:40:32] Well, we'll call listeners and talkers for easy, easy division. I think as a listener, I hear people that are so open with their feelings and you hear the talkers that maybe are sharing that 80% too, especially with social media nowadays, I think that's such a danger because there are it's, uh, you know, it's, it's business friendly to be vulnerable and be authentic and be let people in to a degree, but you see people that can more easily do that.
[00:40:54] And as a listener, I think that's harder because you're like, Oh, I wish I could just. More easily shared, but [00:41:00] as the talker side as well, I think, especially the release, this conversation, it's, it's theirs needs to work on too of like, Oh, maybe I'm, maybe I'm talking too much and need to work more on that, that listening skills.
[00:41:12] That's something that you've had to like intentionally develop over the, over the years.
[00:41:16] Matt: [00:41:16] Yeah. A hundred percent dude, a hundred percent. Like I remember, um, again, there's this one moment I remember. Where I was giving a little presentation, um, with a group of leaders, uh, at our church. And my guy that was, I was meeting with at the time, um, was a part of that, that group.
[00:41:37] And so I gave him a little presentation and we met up the next week and he kind of was like, Hey, I think we should debrief your presentation or, you know, what you shared, uh, And he, I still remember this day, he said, uh, he asked me some questions, like, how prepared do you feel like you were, Oh, well, you know, some diagnostic questions.
[00:41:56] I'm like, Oh gosh, he's set something off here. [00:42:00] And then he laid it on me. He's like, I feel like you subjected your, you subjected the entire audience to. Um, whatever half hour, 45 minutes of rambling, or you subjected this group of people to your just endless rambling. And again, he didn't use those specific words, but that's like what I heard.
[00:42:19] And I was like, uh, now I don't know. That was like the most, you know, helpful way to put it. Thank you, Mr. Mentor. But it, but it was also, you know, one of those things where like, it, it showed me like numerous things, but it did in that moment, it was like, you know what, I need two. Um, and I want to become a better listener.
[00:42:45] And that, wasn't what that presentation was about. I was there to talk and I was under I for the record. I wasn't prepared, but I think what he, when he said that it also kind of evoke this sense of like, Oh man, like I think I do that a lot. I think I do that. I talk and talk and [00:43:00] talk and it's not because I'm trying to necessarily make a point.
[00:43:05] Um, maybe sometimes there's this sense of just I'm I want either I'm trying to prove myself to this person. I would want them to think of me in a certain way. Um, you know, and at the end of the day, it's like, man, I want to also be a person that knows how to listen. Well, you know, I wanna, I want to be.
[00:43:24] Again, that, that, that safe place for someone who can take and share whatever's going on with them and it takes asking good questions, it takes curiosity. And so, yeah, there's definitely, it's been a journey and a process I'm far from done, but I think there's been an unawareness and, um, yeah, that's kinda where I'm at with that.
[00:43:45] Dave: [00:43:45] Yeah. I love that. You say awareness cause I'm sure people listening can mostly identified on, on one side or the other of either the. You know, hopefully, hopefully it's, uh, revealed, uh, an opportunity to improve either on the expression side of it or [00:44:00] the listening side of it and, and be in that for, for someone else.
[00:44:04] And a few, uh, I guess we don't know where, where you're at then seeking, seeking feedback, or just starting to have that awareness. If you're like, I haven't listened in a, in a couple of months and I've just always or vice versa. I think it's good to good to have some of that awareness.
[00:44:18] Matt: [00:44:18] Yeah. I honestly asked her like, Hey, do you, do you think I'm a good listener?
[00:44:22] And like ask for feedback on it and let people talk. I don't do that. No, it's a scary thing, but you know, we can't, we can't address what we don't know. And so let's, you know, a lot of people in our life that have been brought there to help us see our blind spots. And it's not to say I got ya. You know, like you idiot, like no it's man, this is an area that's actually holding you back from becoming more fully who God created you to be.
[00:44:49] So it's a, it's an act of love.
[00:44:52] Dave: [00:44:52] Yeah. And, uh, if they, if they started with, do you really want to know the truth? Yeah. Let me know. What's coming [00:45:00] and you find, you know, I don't actually. Yeah, no, that's good. That's so great. Yeah. I I've above the chat so far. Uh, you know, we can start to wrap things up unless is there anything you want to add on the topic of just, uh, you know, receiving love to give love as it relates to.
[00:45:18] To leadership as it relates to leadership prime marriage in our, in our workplace or any of those things that you want to, you want to add to it?
[00:45:24] Matt: [00:45:24] I mean, I feel like it's just one of those topics that bleeds in everything. I think the being able to trust others with yourself, and I'd say for me, it's trusting God with who I am and trusting others with myself.
[00:45:38] That's where true growth is. And, you know, to the degree we trust people that will either. Limit or, um, or, or bring about growth, um, cause we can't, we're not created to do life alone and to be everything you and I, we do not possess within ourselves the [00:46:00] resources to, to live this life. Um, apart from other people were interconnected, interdependent, and that's what we were created to be.
[00:46:08] And so, um, I think it affects every aspect of life. And so, uh, Yeah. I mean, for those in, you know, for your listeners who are, who are married, I mean, a hundred percent height, that's where a lot of this begins, you know, that's your, you can't, I mean, you can leave, you can clock out at the end of the day or say, you know, say goodbye to your, your, your coworkers or colleagues or whatever.
[00:46:32] Like if they like you're with your spouse and that's. That actually for me has been a place where a lot of this stuff has been kind of within myself has been, uh, you know, experienced and expressed. And, um, it hasn't all been pretty, you know, it's, but it's been one of those things where I'm so thankful that the way that God has designed us to be, and I want to just step more fully into that.
[00:46:57] Dave: [00:46:57] Yeah, that's great. And I, I think, uh, [00:47:00] you bring up a good point too, with. Whatever your beliefs are, your, your marriage needs to come before coworkers come before those things. But if you find that you're able to confide more easily and in coworkers or in, in friends, but you feel like you're keeping things from, uh, from a spouse.
[00:47:16] I think that's sort of the first place we have to have to start in the home and being able to, you know, how that affects. Our relationship, our kids, our future kids and all those things. I think it's a, you know, definitely a place to have to start.
[00:47:29] Matt: [00:47:29] Yeah. A hundred percent it's if that's happening in your marriage.
[00:47:33] I mean, that's a, it's a light on the dashboard saying there's something going on and under in the engine check engine, and again, that's, that's, uh, you know, that's a place of asking for help. If we have to get help for, with our marriage, like that's, we're expressing, we're not perfect. Guess what? No one knows you is not going to be surprised.
[00:47:52] It's it's a statement of like, we're limited, we're weak and we need help. So yeah, lean into that.
[00:48:00] [00:47:59] Dave: [00:47:59] Yeah. And especially with your, with your background in the church too. And I totally understand that not everyone listening is, you know, shares, shares. My beliefs are our beliefs and we're, you know, we're totally fine with that, but I know we were talking off camera here of, of how your relationship with God, you know, can kind of enhance sex.
[00:48:17] We talked a lot about community with, with others and, uh, which, you know, regardless of your beliefs, I think we can all agree that that's. You know, a core is having that with other people, but how does your relationship with God, or how have you seen this played out with others in terms of, I won't say enhancing this, but, uh, you know, making it, making it easier to, to share, to lean into that.
[00:48:39] Matt: [00:48:39] So how's my relationship with God. Been a resource. For me relationally with others. Is that kind of,
[00:48:45]Dave: [00:48:45] how has it made this whole topic easier? Because this is a tough, tough topic. How has, how has your relationship with God allowed you to be more vulnerable, allowed you to both accept and give love in that way?
[00:48:57] Matt: [00:48:57] I mean, first and foremost, it's [00:49:00] like what I mentioned earlier, it's, you know, accepting that I'm a creative being. And then, you know, the idea of, I have a God who created me, who loves, who loves me and. You know, I don't think he, you know, we talk about, um, you know, I mean, Jesus comes and Jesus, he does what he does.
[00:49:21] He lives, he lives a perfect life. He dies in our place. Uh, there's forgiveness and what's so cool about the Christian gospel is that there's not just forgiveness of sins, but there's also new life. You know that we are, we are created like the, the Bible tells us that we are, if we are in Christ, we're a new creation.
[00:49:37] And, um, I think about the, you know, new creation, like, okay, so if I'm a new creation, how did God create me? Well, he created, he created me. He, he's not, it doesn't create broken things. He doesn't create, uh, you know, things that. That are, uh, that are broken and just like in our repulsive, no, he created something beautiful and he says, [00:50:00] leaning into like, how did God create me to be?
[00:50:02] And he created me for relationships and he's, he's done everything that he is need that needed to be done to, to draw me back into relationship with him. And I don't have anything to hide. Before God. I know like a lot of times when we think of God, Oh man, he's just, he, you know, a lot of times you can conjure up the sense of like, we haven't, there's an angry dad.
[00:50:23] Who's out to get me. And like, that's just, that's a lie. That's not, that's not who God is. God is, he is love. And he's expressed his love and in the person that Jesus Christ. So like, when I think about God, I know that I have a loving father. I believe he loves me and has given his son for me. And so there's a sense of like, Um, for me for that to be good news, first and foremost, I have to come to the place that I've I'm admitting need, you know, like the gospel, it requires us to, to admit need in order to receive the love of God.
[00:50:52] And we have to say, I need that, that there, you know, that, that there is something that was, that was [00:51:00] wrong and died. God has redeemed and he has come in and he's provided everything that's needed for that rescue to happen. And so. That's it it's, you know, when I think about our relationship with God and being a resource for relating to other people is I don't have anything to hide.
[00:51:19] I don't have anything to prove. I don't have to have anything to protect. I don't have to pretend because God knows everything about me and has, and, and truly loves me. Like that sets me free to go out and to love others. It, it sets me free to go out and, and to express to others. Like I need you, you know, because my meaning and my value in life is not about me being the macho man and having an altogether, you know, that's not the scorecard that I'm playing off of anymore.
[00:51:51] You know, like when God looks at me, he's like, no, I'm, I'm actually, I'm really pleased with my creation. I'm pleased with Matt. I, you know, I, I created him [00:52:00] in, in such a beautiful way and I'm, I'm, I'm. I want him to lean more fully into who I created him to be, and I want, and for me to experience that, it's just, um, it takes the pressure off of needing to prove myself to other people.
[00:52:15] It's like, I'm accepted by God for who I am, and I can go and, um, give, spend my life giving to others versus trying to take from them. You know, and so that's one of the things that has really bleeds into all of life for me as well is, you know, that's like receiving. Um, love from God vertically, and to be able to express that horizontally because we'll only give away what we believe that we've received.
[00:52:48] And if we believe that God is stingy and holding out on us, we're not gonna, we're not going to give much away because we're going to hold it, hold it to ourselves. We have a, God has lavished crazy, crazy love on [00:53:00] us and is, is, is filled us and is sending us to love and to bless others. And so. That's huge.
[00:53:08] Dave: [00:53:08] Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that. I, I, I hear a lot of things within that, but, uh, one thing that stands out is it seems like that vertical relationship expands our capacity to give where we would that relationship. We don't have to be as. Reliant on other people, you know, in my example, I don't have to be as relying on other people hearing me or having to, you know, receive as much from a relationship, even though that's, I, I know that's so important.
[00:53:37] It's still something we, we need those mutual relationships like we talked about, but I think it does expand our capacity to give more and not have to look for, you know, look for a mutual, like 50, 50 exchange of like, yeah. And last time, totally hard talking. So like, You give me an hour today, you know?
[00:53:54] Matt: [00:53:54] Yeah. Or just like, yeah, we're obsessed with like the, you know, the ROI on this relationship. It's like, you know [00:54:00] what. No, I've been given everything. God has not held back. He's given me everything in Jesus. And I'm now I'm here to give. And what does life begin to look like when you truly believe that you, you lack nothing.
[00:54:15] You've been given everything that ultimately matters, you know, all of the meaning and value and acceptance and you know, all of that. When you believe that you have that in Christ, it just sets you free to go and to be a blessing to others. And you're at the same time. And again, it feels a little bit like a paradox, but it also means that I can go and be real with others and to receive their love.
[00:54:41] You know, it's like, Cause there are still are, there are ways, you know, being here as humans on this planet, we're still gonna have needs, you know, and people are waiting, waiting for us, standing by waiting for us to love us. We have to believe that.
[00:54:57] Dave: [00:54:57] Yeah. Awesome. Awesome, awesome point. And, [00:55:00] uh, you know, as, as we start to wrap up here and it's a, a fitting question that, you know, as I approached you about that, the podcast, and even on the, you know, this one's very heavily.
[00:55:11] Obviously that the love and the vulnerability piece is already ingrained to it. So it doesn't need as much of a segue, but in other ones talked about it. People get on for health podcasts, or business things, leadership things. And one of the questions ask people is on vulnerability because you know, we've talked about, especially in the social media world, it's such a, it's such a, you know, facade of like all is good.
[00:55:33] And we see the highlight reels, we see those things and that can be dangerous for men to see because it, it creates this. It reinforces the belief that we have to have it all together, that we have to put up that macho front, that we can't be vulnerable because what we see all these people that are successful that are, uh, have it all together.
[00:55:53] They've, they've got the, the external things that the house, the marriage that, you know, these things, but we [00:56:00] don't, we don't see the whole picture on that. So I'd love a. Because you're, uh, your pasture, you know, so you got everything figured out, you got a life, a hundred percent dialed in. So I know you don't have anything about, but if you did have something to be vulnerable about, is there anything, uh, you know, any challenge you faced maybe recently or in the past that ended up being actually a catalyst for your growth as a man?
[00:56:21] Matt: [00:56:21] Oh man, that's a great question. Yeah. The quick answer is yes. A hundred percent. Uh, I think most recently it's been, it's been a season, uh, but with my wife, Paige, and this, the journey of pregnancy, never, ever thought that that was going to be a thing, you know, I thought once you want to have kids, you, you know, you do a couple of things and you have kids.
[00:56:45] And I just thought that there was just. Um, as easy as that and this whole journey, like for us over. Of course of the, uh, you know, probably five, six [00:57:00] years of going through, you know, we've had, uh, several miscarriages, there's been just these weird question marks in terms of like, you know, is this ever going to work out for us?
[00:57:10] And then, you know, like I mentioned earlier, we have like a couple, two, two years ago. God totally blessed us with, um, Archer, our son, um, and. There's, you know, we're we're, we would love to have, uh, a growing family. And so it's a, both a past journey and a current one that has brought me to this place of man.
[00:57:32] Like, what is. It's it's on multiple levels. That's been really difficult. I think one of the things is, you know, talking about emotions and feelings and all that stuff, as much as I talk about how important that is, it's something that is still hard for me to do. And it can be really hard for me to do at times with Paige as we go through these, these hardships and you know, these losses.
[00:57:54] You know, she's a very, she's a feeler she's, you know, and, uh, [00:58:00] very emotional and these kinds of things are, are very emotional. Um, especially for our wives that, you know, when it, when I remember just even recently, when we went through another loss, it was just the sense of like, man, like, it felt like it was exposing in me this, I don't feel like I'm enough.
[00:58:21] I don't feel like I'm enough to, to be, be what she needs in this moment is made me feel weak. It was made me feel inadequate. And again, these are things that can be really linchpins to like pivot me to like, to like, no, it's okay. That I'm weak. It's okay. That I'm not okay. Enough. You know, my adequacy is not found in my ability to fix this, but those feelings come up and.
[00:58:47] It's once again, I think through, um, this whole S I'm just gonna call it a season, cause it's a multiple year journey that we've been on. I've been blown away with how God has [00:59:00] used. I got as other women into page's life to minister, to care for him to love on her and to be there with her in a way that I just feel like I can't, I don't feel.
[00:59:13] You know, I don't have, I don't have all that she needs and that's okay. And so, but it makes me, it makes me thankful that the way that those, that God provides those kinds of people. Um, and in the same way for me that I've been able to go out and process with other men, how I'm feeling, what I'm feeling, what I'm experiencing like this, not enoughness this inadequacy to be able to process that and to, to be vulnerable with it.
[00:59:40] So honestly, that's been such a, you know, there's been multiple things that I've learned and am learning through that journey of, of. Um, pregnancy and, and wanting to grow and build, build a family that if it wasn't for that, there would be many, many things I just would never have learned about who God is and who [01:00:00] I am and how to be a husband, how to be, um, to have to love her well in that.
[01:00:06] So that, uh, yeah, I mean, that's definitely the one that's I think the most. Fresh and ongoing is that right? And you know what, it's not something I can just go and fix. I can't go watch a few YouTube videos, uh, and you know, or have it figured out or read up, read a book. It's, there's a lot of question marks.
[01:00:30] And so for me, it's just learning to, like, I want to be a team together with her. I don't want this to drive us apart. And so. For me, it's leading is like taking initiative to be, I want to walk this journey together and to enter in and not resist feeling all these feelings, but enter into them to be there with her.
[01:00:52] It's tough though. Um, man, I appreciate sharing that and it's, uh, you know, I know how tough it's [01:01:00] been, but also an encouragement to seek that unity and to be an encouragement for others, that whether they're going through something. Specifically the same or other, you know, marriage holds its whole waves of challenges and struggles, but, uh, you know, I love what you said about not having to be everything for our spouse.
[01:01:19] And I think, you know, I, I definitely find that too, of trying to fill every need and solve every problem and, and do that. And, uh, to know that that's not on us to do that or to put pressures on our spouse to do the same for us. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the, kind of the, one of the gifts that we can give to our spouses, that we would have other guys that we can confide in, just so that they're not our lightning pole, just come home and dump on them.
[01:01:49] It's no, there's there's enough going on in life to just to spread it out and to share. Um, so yeah, cultivating that as huge, huge gift.
[01:02:00] [01:01:59] Dave: [01:01:59] Yeah. Yeah. No, this has been, uh, it's been great in that. I don't, I don't know how to find just a few takeaways. I don't know if you have any, uh, uh, summaries. I know we mentioned things like identifying it, like, um, you know, surrounding in
[01:02:13] community and finding those people that you can confide in, whether it's just one person being able to pour in to, you know, a hundred percent not, not living at that 80, 80% Mark. And, uh, any other things you want to add? Uh, we, we touched on a lot of things and I think it's, uh, you know, applicable that you're on the listening end of the talking end or whether you're guy, girl, whatever you believe in.
[01:02:36] Um, you know, this is something that too. To be the way we were created to be, and to live in that community. We have to have to be able to embrace. And it's, it's hard, it's sticky. It's, it's challenging, but, uh, any, any encouragement for, for people trying to step up?
[01:02:53] Matt: [01:02:53] Yeah. Um, so one author, he puts it this way.
[01:02:59] It takes a [01:03:00] lifetime to learn how to live in. And so like, lets us be okay with where we're at, but like, you know, we're setting a course ahead of you here. And we're heading in a direction and trying to develop a posture. So it's okay. Wherever you're at today, there's no shame. There's no guilt in that. Um, it takes a lifetime to learn how to live.
[01:03:19] And so we're all works in progress. And so that's the first thing, actually. Speaking of that, that author, his name is Chip Dodd. He wrote a book called the voice of the heart. And maybe you could throw that in the show notes or something for your listeners. Um, if you're that book for me was one of the books that I think just kind of gave me these aha moments of discovering what is it that I'm feeling here, you know?
[01:03:42] And, and he does a fantastic job identifying the core feelings and, uh, and giving language to that. So, yeah. Uh, yeah, as far as summary wrap up thoughts on this. Um, yeah, it's again, it's a, it's a process. [01:04:00] And, you know, as we seek to, to become, you know, a. To become healthy as men. It's not just our, our physical health and our mental health, you know, it's spiritual health, it's emotional to relational health as well.
[01:04:15] And so I just, I'm thankful for, you know, for you, Dave, that you would even tie this in and bring me in here to have this conversation, tie this into your. You, you know, for your listeners as they are all pursuing, uh, health and to become the best version of themselves as they can. Like we can't guys, we can't ignore, um, our, our hearts.
[01:04:38] You know, and, um, it's gonna, it takes, it takes time, but we can't ignore what's going on inside because I, uh, we could have everything right on the surface. But if our, if our hearts are, are just behind walls, because we have not allowed them to come out, you know, that's, that's not healthy. And so I'm hoping that [01:05:00] this would be an encouragement to those, the guys, the listeners, men, and women that are on this journey of, of health and that they would, they would feel to find and to cultivate those relationships with others.
[01:05:11] Dave: [01:05:11] No, I, I, I totally appreciate you coming on. And when we, we wanted to get you on here for initially talked about it. We were thinking of ideas. Build bigger biceps to pasture different episodes. We'll say that for a different one, but, uh, you know, I love being able to share this and I it's, uh, you know, this kind of episode, I think people can respond different, different ways to it.
[01:05:34] I really. You know, encourage people to, to take this to heart and see that this bleeds into everything, because it's said whether you're pursuing health, whether you're pursuing, you know, finances or business help, or just trying to live a better life, like this is the, is the foundation of it. And I think, uh, you know, I'm, I'm just excited for you to be able to come on and for us to be able to share this because.
[01:05:57] It is important. And some people might, [01:06:00] you know, there's going to be people that probably roll their eyes or see the episode of vulnerability and love. And it's like, well, that's not what I'm looking for in, uh, in trying to better myself, but it's, it's such a. It's it's such a principle that just expand.
[01:06:13] So wherever you're at, whatever you're trying to do, and especially as men, especially as men, it's, it's hard to do. It's, uh, it's hard to talk about. I think it's, uh, hard to have a, a safe space to, to have that, to see that as okay. But yeah. And know that it is. And if you're having a hard time finding that, I think it's something that you can add what you want this map, but finding a community where you can find maybe a friend where you can or find someone where you can confide in, because it feels like this is so out there and.
[01:06:44] Something that's not possible for your situation then, uh, as you probably evaluate who you are, where you can, where you can find people that that will accept you for who you are.
[01:06:54] Matt: [01:06:54] Yeah, absolutely. It's you know, who are the people you already are spending your time with [01:07:00] and what would it look like to lean into those relationships with intention and to, to be vulnerable and you know what, it's going to be risky.
[01:07:08] I mean, dangerous, but the greater risk is to, to like keep yourself sealed up. That's the greater risk. And so live, live from the heart live fully, and to lean into that, it's, it's going to be not only a gift to you. It's going to be a gift to others as well.
[01:07:24] Dave: [01:07:24] Yeah, so great. And when do we have, uh, one more hypothetical question here?
[01:07:27] We ask all the guests and I know you want to prepare it as of, uh, the started late, but you're, uh, you're ready to go. So you have a leaving favorite coffee shop in town, which is Ooh, right now it's, Phil's, Phil's just the pour over guy right now. I love it all about our pour overs, but leaving Phil'z. And, uh, you run into younger, younger Matt, 10 years.
[01:07:50] 10 years prior and, uh, unimportant, uh, on your way to youth page in Archie got an important to porn day with them. Can't be late 60 seconds to talk with younger [01:08:00] Matt, he's looking for some life advice and wisdom. What are you saying to them? And what advice you giving?
[01:08:04] Matt: [01:08:04] Oh, man, first thing is start surfing.
[01:08:07] Start to surf, catch the bugs. I started surfing recently and I'm, I'm secretly holding a grudge against everybody who did not get me into it sooner. So, do you know who you are now? That's that's one thing. The other thing would be shave. Your beard does not look good. Um, the third thing would, I mean, just to kind of echo on what we've been talking about here, cause this is not just theoretical.
[01:08:34] Um, Hey, Oh, let's talk about this topic. Thank you, Dave. Yeah. Cool. Uh, this is what I've been living in and what we've been talking about for awhile and. It would, it would be just the exact same advice would be like Matt don't live in fear. Don't live in fear, lean in and to trust others with yourself, trust God with who you are, trust others with yourself.
[01:08:57] Don't waste time trying to be [01:09:00] strong and pretend, and to bluff your way through your life. I mean, my younger self would be confused with, with all that meant, but it's, it's the core of that message is. You are enough. God has made you enough. Um, live, you can live your life, trusting yourself with trusting him with yourself and others with yourself and experience just the life and the freedom that comes in that,
[01:09:25] Dave: [01:09:25] man, I love it. Do you, uh, do you have any place people can connect with you if, uh, connect with you or maybe with the churches? Yeah, I'm always in the gym. Come on, but I'm just kidding. I'm never in the gym. Uh,
[01:09:39] Matt: [01:09:39] Oh man. I'm not much of a social media guy, but I am on Twitter @MattCarlson, Darren on there early enough.
[01:09:45] So I don't have to be at Matt Carlson underscore. Seven five, two, five, five, five, three. But, uh, yeah. That's but, um, I'm yeah, that'd be the one place. And then at Seacoast, you guys are interested in checking, uh, seek us out. We're a [01:10:00] seacoast-church.org, seacoast-church.org. So those are the two people.
[01:10:05] Dave: [01:10:05] Love it Bro.
[01:10:06] I know you're not a big social media guy. So I had to. Derek had it had to go there though, man. I appreciate you coming on. Love the love, the topic today. I love what guys are gonna get out of it. If they can, you know, take it and you don't have to agree with everything we talked about in it, but, uh, you know, peel back and find those, those core principles, those things find just even one or two things that you can.
[01:10:30] Take and start to like, say lean into and just, you know, embrace it. Don't, don't write it off as something that's not applicable to you because I guarantee you it's ethical with everyone. So love it. Love you, bro. Appreciate being on that. Thanks for sharing it.
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